What would it take for a Muslim to renounce Islam as a fraud, or a Catholic to renounce the Catholic Church as a bunch of snake-oil salesmen and nothing more?
If you engage in a debate with believers about their dire need to believe in the existence of a God, that is one thing. But if you engage in a debate with that same believer about their dire need to believe in their particular ("one true") religion, in order that they may believe in the particular version of God it offers, that is another thing entirely. While the former is something one could never disprove the existence of (since it is simply an infinite abstraction that can always morph its way around any criticism), the latter is something that is as man made as a temple filled with money lenders.
What is fascinating about the believer's devotion to all of humanity's different man-made religions is their absolute conviction that THEIR religion comes directly, unvarnished and unsullied, from God on high, and that all of the others are either wrong or somewhat impaired. But the question that befuddles all of those who see all such religious institutions as nothing but cults - no matter how many millions of people may choose to drink the Kool Aid (which is the wine that, like vampires seeking eternal life, Christians call "the blood" of Christ) - is this: What evidence would it take to finally prove to such "true" believers, that their religion is NOT what they are convinced it is?
What would it have taken to prove to the terrorists who attacked America on 9/11, that their religion was nothing but a lie that had been used to manipulate them into killing themselves and thousands of others, with false promises? What amount of bloodshed, genocide, rape, murder, pedophilia, or night club shootings, etc etc, would FINALLY lead such "believers" - of ANY religion - to finally step back and ask themselves if maybe the fear and hatred generated by my religious "beliefs" are the real "fruit" that lets me know just how destructive and divisive my religious "beliefs" really are?
What would it take to make a Christian or a Muslim take a step back, for just a moment, and with the humility their religions require of them to bow before their gods, ask themselves if maybe - just maybe!- their sacred text based world view is NOT the world view that a "God" wants and indeed demands of his "children" (and if we are all God's children, after all, then what makes Jesus so special?), but simply the wild superstition based prejudices of long ago that they just happen to agree with? (As someone once pointed out, for example, "you know your god is man made when he wants all of the same things as you.")
The answer is: none. Indeed, an infinite amount of evidence could ever convince the "true believer" that their "beliefs" are not "true." That is the power of denial. In fact, Jesus himself could be crucified and rise from the dead, just to PROVE to such "believers" that their "beliefs," their "church", and their "religion" is purely man made, and STILL such believers would refuse to doubt their own beliefs.
And if such "true believers" were offered Christ or Barabbas (today's equivalent of Donald Trump, basically) they would insist their Christianity required them to challenge Caesar by electing the latter, and the salvation of their soul required that they crucify the former.
Such willingness to kill Christ all over again, comes from the fact that when the "believer" says they "know" the "truth" that God and their particular religion is real, they are not admitting a "fact" that cannot be denied (although many of them insist they are - which tells you how such people interpret "facts"). Instead, they are speaking purely from an emotional point of conviction, no matter how much reasoning or philosophy they may lather on top of those emotions to prove their "belief" (mostly to themselves) is a perfectly logical thing to believe, and defend.
And some would rather be fed to the lions, while plenty of others would rather condemn and burn people to death, than ever admit or even consider for a single second, that they could possibly be wrong - about everything. Indeed, even the power of God cannot overcome the "true believers" power of denial.
If you engage in a debate with believers about their dire need to believe in the existence of a God, that is one thing. But if you engage in a debate with that same believer about their dire need to believe in their particular ("one true") religion, in order that they may believe in the particular version of God it offers, that is another thing entirely. While the former is something one could never disprove the existence of (since it is simply an infinite abstraction that can always morph its way around any criticism), the latter is something that is as man made as a temple filled with money lenders.
What is fascinating about the believer's devotion to all of humanity's different man-made religions is their absolute conviction that THEIR religion comes directly, unvarnished and unsullied, from God on high, and that all of the others are either wrong or somewhat impaired. But the question that befuddles all of those who see all such religious institutions as nothing but cults - no matter how many millions of people may choose to drink the Kool Aid (which is the wine that, like vampires seeking eternal life, Christians call "the blood" of Christ) - is this: What evidence would it take to finally prove to such "true" believers, that their religion is NOT what they are convinced it is?
What would it have taken to prove to the terrorists who attacked America on 9/11, that their religion was nothing but a lie that had been used to manipulate them into killing themselves and thousands of others, with false promises? What amount of bloodshed, genocide, rape, murder, pedophilia, or night club shootings, etc etc, would FINALLY lead such "believers" - of ANY religion - to finally step back and ask themselves if maybe the fear and hatred generated by my religious "beliefs" are the real "fruit" that lets me know just how destructive and divisive my religious "beliefs" really are?
What would it take to make a Christian or a Muslim take a step back, for just a moment, and with the humility their religions require of them to bow before their gods, ask themselves if maybe - just maybe!- their sacred text based world view is NOT the world view that a "God" wants and indeed demands of his "children" (and if we are all God's children, after all, then what makes Jesus so special?), but simply the wild superstition based prejudices of long ago that they just happen to agree with? (As someone once pointed out, for example, "you know your god is man made when he wants all of the same things as you.")
The answer is: none. Indeed, an infinite amount of evidence could ever convince the "true believer" that their "beliefs" are not "true." That is the power of denial. In fact, Jesus himself could be crucified and rise from the dead, just to PROVE to such "believers" that their "beliefs," their "church", and their "religion" is purely man made, and STILL such believers would refuse to doubt their own beliefs.
And if such "true believers" were offered Christ or Barabbas (today's equivalent of Donald Trump, basically) they would insist their Christianity required them to challenge Caesar by electing the latter, and the salvation of their soul required that they crucify the former.
Such willingness to kill Christ all over again, comes from the fact that when the "believer" says they "know" the "truth" that God and their particular religion is real, they are not admitting a "fact" that cannot be denied (although many of them insist they are - which tells you how such people interpret "facts"). Instead, they are speaking purely from an emotional point of conviction, no matter how much reasoning or philosophy they may lather on top of those emotions to prove their "belief" (mostly to themselves) is a perfectly logical thing to believe, and defend.
And some would rather be fed to the lions, while plenty of others would rather condemn and burn people to death, than ever admit or even consider for a single second, that they could possibly be wrong - about everything. Indeed, even the power of God cannot overcome the "true believers" power of denial.
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